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Post by Jeff Melton on May 4, 2010 21:40:36 GMT -5
As you know (if you're reading 70's Champions that is), James Buchanan Barnes has returned, breaking free of the conditioning and control of the Soviet government. The question now is: What to call him? I personally think he would not want to go by the Winter Soldier identity. I think it would carry too many bad memories for him, and it would tie into a government and an identity that he hates. Still, that begs the question, what to call him? Bucky is an obvious option, but I think he certainly qualifies as a Nomad, by the very definition of the term. And at this point, no one is using the name. Cap has returned to being Cap and Jack Monroe, while having already returned a couple of years before, isn't active and hasn't assumed the Nomad name yet. I'm leaning to just restoring the Bucky name, but I'm putting it out there for a vote. I'm curious what the readers will say. I've also opened up the possibility for other choices (because I'm too lazy to come up with any more myself ). Let me know what you think.
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sunnyd
Too Much Time On Your Hands
Posts: 72
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Post by sunnyd on May 5, 2010 7:11:35 GMT -5
I think the "Bucky" identity is by definition "Captain America's Sidekick" so I would only use that codename if that is in fact the role you see James Barnes taking up upon his return. I assume that's not the case, which is why I voted for "Nomad". That one personally appeals to me the most for various reasons, the most relevant of which I think is that it just *feels* very 1970's to me. I hope you go with the bare-chest version of the costume as well. DG
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Post by Stephen Crosby on May 5, 2010 16:34:41 GMT -5
Well, Bucky isn't so much a codename so much as it is a shortening of his middle name, Buchanan. The recent update doesn't have Bucky as a sidekick, he was the soldier that accompanied Captain America in battle. The special forces operative that did things Cap couldn't be seen doing. The rest was window-dressing, the man was a soldier first, and Bucky was his war name.
It honestly depends on how you plan to use him in Champions, Jeff. Will he be wandering alone to rediscover America, wearing a mask when he helps people out? That's Nomad. Will he be joining the military or SHIELD, going off on covert operations? Codename: Bucky. If he's sticking with the Champions, going the full-on super-hero route, a new costume and identity may be in the works. For that I'd defer to your grand imagination Jeff.
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aviscotasse
Fanfic Newbie
REVENGE OF TESS-ONE!!
Posts: 3
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Post by aviscotasse on May 5, 2010 18:42:51 GMT -5
Just to be outside of the box -- how about no codename at all. Why not have him be just himself; James Barnes. The character could be shown trying to reestablish his own self image as he is just coming off of being brainwashed and still can't identify with who he is and what he was.
As Dave Mustaine sang in "Sweating Bullets" -- If the war inside my head, Won't take a day off I'll be dead -- James could be experiencing the same conflicts between personalities even if it seems that he has completely overcome conditioning.
Or has he?
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Post by Jeff Melton on May 9, 2010 22:43:45 GMT -5
Great commentary, everyone. I like the responses so far, and appreciate the discussion. I don't want to say too much, because I do want everyone to give their input without me "poisoning the well", so to speak, but I'd like to address a couple of things that have been said thus far.
First, my take on Nomad is the man without a place to be. Originally, Cap took the identity because of his disenchantment with the government (which is always understandable). Bucky, of course, is as man out of his time. He won't be wandering, certainly, but will have a place in the 1970's Champions. More on that in #9, which I've just finished.
As for Bucky, I think it's an identity, because it has a costume and everything. And there's a lot of history associated with the name. I do like the way he's called James by Natasha and others. I plan on incorporating that, because it will make sense, especially if Bucky is what I go with.
I'm not surprised that Winter Soldier has gotten no votes as yet. I think everyone who's voted is probably thinking what I think about that--it ties him to a part of his past he'd rather forget. Of course, it also begs the question--will there be another Winter Soldier?
Thanks again for voting, and I hope to see the discussions continue. I'm putting a link to this poll in the latest issue, and we'll see where it goes from there. I hope everyone's enjoying the series. The newest issue will focus on building these characters' private lives a bit. I hope y'all enjoy it.
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Post by rppowell66 on May 11, 2010 20:55:18 GMT -5
I prefer Bucky. It's a great name, and as for it being a sidekick name, I think that depends on how the character is defined in the stories. The flashback stories that Brubaker has done with the character show just how serious the character can be taken. I can't think of anything else to call the character, personally.
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 20, 2010 14:19:38 GMT -5
Of the options, I'd prefer Nomad, although part of me would prefer to see the name left open for Jack Monroe.
How about Battlestar ?
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Post by Jeff Melton on May 24, 2010 20:18:35 GMT -5
I understand where you're coming from concerning Nomad being Jack Monroe. Of course, at the time of my series, Jack's still in the custody of SHIELD, after he and 50's Cap battled Cap, Sharon and Falcon a short time earlier.
I have mixed feelings about the Nomad name for Bucky. Battlestar is an interesting option, and one I hadn't considered. I think that's the benefit of opening up the discussion for additional names (or maybe it's just an excuse for me being too lazy to come up with other names on my own).
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Post by fracture on May 26, 2010 17:19:14 GMT -5
Hey, Jeff -- I remember from comics I was reading back in the actual '70s themselves -- here I'm referencing the INVADERS mag as well as an issue or two of WHAT IF...? -- that Marvel had two very US/patriotic characters running around briefly who Bucky would have known of or encountered (I...think?) during his WWII days, and whose names he could swipe if he felt so inclined. First, the Spirit of '76 was a member of the Crusaders, and then he became the new Cap after the real one vanished into the ice floes...and then there was the Patriot, a member of the Liberty Legion, and he then became the third Cap, who stepped into the big red, white, and blue shoes after the Spirit of '76 was killed. I think either name could arguably work for you, and they both do have authentic '70s cred. Something to think about...
Steve
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Dino Pollard
Aspiring Loser
Former Writer of Just About Everything
Posts: 26
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Post by Dino Pollard on May 26, 2010 21:43:05 GMT -5
My vote would definitely go for Nomad. I think it's very appropriate for Bucky being not only a man out of time, but in a way a man without a country (more or less forgotten by the U.S. and then used as a weapon by the Soviets).
Bucky would be a close second choice for me. I think in the modern era, it doesn't really work for the character. But I think in the setting of 70s Champions, it would work well.
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Post by Jeff Melton on May 29, 2010 17:38:54 GMT -5
Hey, Jeff -- I remember from comics I was reading back in the actual '70s themselves -- here I'm referencing the INVADERS mag as well as an issue or two of WHAT IF...? -- that Marvel had two very US/patriotic characters running around briefly who Bucky would have known of or encountered (I...think?) during his WWII days, and whose names he could swipe if he felt so inclined. First, the Spirit of '76 was a member of the Crusaders, and then he became the new Cap after the real one vanished into the ice floes...and then there was the Patriot, a member of the Liberty Legion, and he then became the third Cap, who stepped into the big red, white, and blue shoes after the Spirit of '76 was killed. I think either name could arguably work for you, and they both do have authentic '70s cred. Something to think about... Steve Very interesting and well thought-out suggestions. I also like how you tied everything to the '70's, the era we're dealing with in 70's Champions. Like you, I was reading comics during that time. It's actually interesting how Spirit of '76 was incorporated into Cap's continuity. Stan Lee forgot (as he often did) about the post-war stories when he brought back Captain America. So, by mistake he had Cap disappear in 1945, shortly before the war's end. Given that there were stories dealing with Cap that took place well after the war (until 1949, and really until 1955), something had to be done to address his error. Personally, I would have preferred to fix the error by saying that the Zemo story was in 1949, and it was a revenge story, which really had nothing to do with the war (after all, Zemo had his own, very personal, reasons to hate Cap). But, Roy Thomas had another idea. He wrote What If? #5, which laid out the story that Spirit of '76 took over after Cap. Then, when he was killed in really his first outing as Cap, the Patriot took over and remained in the role, presumably until Cap's last 40's appearance, in 1949. Of course, this is one of Roy Thomas' half-baked "solutions" that doesn't take into account that the stories clearly featured Steve Rogers right up until his last actual appearance (ironically, battling the Red Skull in a very wild tale). The What If? #5 would be the only issue of that series that would be incorporated into continuity. The 50's stories were explained by Steve Englehart in a more logical fashion during the 50's Cap storyline ( Captain America #153-156), where he established the existence of a second Captain America who underwent extensive plastic surgery and the super soldier serum treatment to become Steve Rogers. Of course, it had the typical 70's Englehart heavy-handed liberalism in it. Englehart was uneasy with Cap being such an anti-communist during the 50's and had to figure out a way to explain that. So, in his close-minded fashion, he had to turn that version into a crazy man (in Englehart's mind, only a crazy man would oppose communism). Still, there were good elements to the story, and the 50's Cap and Bucky are a pretty enduring legacy at Marvel. Anyway, getting back to your question, you really had an interesting suggestion. Spirit of '76 name is certainly un-used (and it would be interesting to see that addressed, as well as the status of Freddie, who worked with Spirit of '76 and Patriot during '45-'49). Jeff Mace is alive in '78, although not necessarily active as the Patriot. A good visual character, and I agree that the Liberty Legion are definitely a great group created in the 70's. You've added a lot to the discussion.
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Post by Jeff Melton on May 29, 2010 17:44:39 GMT -5
My vote would definitely go for Nomad. I think it's very appropriate for Bucky being not only a man out of time, but in a way a man without a country (more or less forgotten by the U.S. and then used as a weapon by the Soviets). That's my take on it too. I think he is a man without a country and time. I think there would logically be some adjustments to the 70's. Of course, he was coming in and out of suspended during some of that time. He likely took notice of some of the changes going on. But, brainwashed as he was, it's hard to say how much sunk in. I understand where you're coming from. I like the costume and Bucky is an iconic character for me. I appreciate you joining in the discussion.
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Post by fracture on May 30, 2010 10:47:26 GMT -5
Hey, Jeff -- I'm glad my suggestions gave you some food for thought, even if you do ultimately decide to go with a different choice. I guess I put them forth because Bucky doesn't seem like a name Barnes would go back to after what he's been through, and both the Nomad and Winter Soldier names seem more modern to me, and not so '70s. I think Cap himself may have used the Nomad handle in comics that came out in the '70s, but it's hard to separate myself from being a reader in 2010...so whenever I hear the name, I picture Jack Monroe with his long hair and trenchcoat, and it all just seems very '90s to me. Just my opinion, but yeah, whether the names I tossed into the ring work for you or not, I do think that at the very least, they "feel" like they have a certain '70s vibe.
Wow, you remember way more about the progression of Caps than I do! I read the WHAT IF...? stories we're talking about, and still even have them in a box somewhere, but I've never actually read any '50s Cap stories first-hand. Your post was educational for me in that regard! I do remember being very impressed with the WHAT IF...? tale, though -- actually a lot of early stories in that mag made a big impression on me, in part because of the twists on established continuity, but also in part simply because they were so tragic much of the time! I guess the writers there could revel in the sudden ability to kill off major characters, since, hey, it didn't affect the main Marvel timeline! They were pretty effective, though. And odd that a WHAT IF...? story, like the one about the Spirit of '76, managed to become canon anyway, despite starting life as an alternate world tale!
As for Fred Davis, I'm pretty sure in the 616, he went on to join the V-Battalion, and at real-Marvel is still a part of its Penance Council. The V-Battalion was active in WWII, but Heinrich Zemo killed most or all of the original members, and the Battalion was reformed years later by Roger Aubrey (the Mighty Destroyer) and some other Golden Age heroes, I think with Fred being one of the early ones. The question I can't answer right now without some additional research, though, is whether this reformation occurred in the '50s, post-millennium, or somewhere in between. They may have been secretly operational in '78, when your stories are taking place, or that might have still been the period between the two incarnations of the group. And then again, since you're doing your own thing that diverges from real-Marvel, Fred Davis wouldn't necessarily have to join the V-Battalion if you don't want it to be that way in your title...
And Jeff Mace would probably be too old in '78 to be still tugging on the Patriot costume, I'd think, unless he had one of those kinds of age-reversing or -retarding experiences that a lot of his peers seemed to luck into. The Liberty Legion is an awesome group, though, and a new Patriot could be cool. Ditto a new Spirit of '76, for that matter...even if James Buchanan Barnes isn't the guy taking on those names...
Steve
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Dino Pollard
Aspiring Loser
Former Writer of Just About Everything
Posts: 26
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Post by Dino Pollard on May 30, 2010 20:30:34 GMT -5
Of course, it had the typical 70's Englehart heavy-handed liberalism in it. Englehart was uneasy with Cap being such an anti-communist during the 50's and had to figure out a way to explain that. So, in his close-minded fashion, he had to turn that version into a crazy man (in Englehart's mind, only a crazy man would oppose communism). Without wanting to get too political, I don't think it was so much that only a crazy man would oppose communism as it was that the 50s stories were very much a product of the paranoia during the Red Scare. Regardless of your political affiliations, there's no denying that a lot of innocent people had their lives ruined during this period. And personally, I'm glad Steve Rogers was retconned from being party to an extremely dark period in American politics. Although politics have always played a part in the comics, Cap should never be to the point that he's on one extreme or the other.
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Post by Jeff Melton on Jun 19, 2010 16:54:19 GMT -5
I guess I put them forth because Bucky doesn't seem like a name Barnes would go back to after what he's been through, and both the Nomad and Winter Soldier names seem more modern to me, and not so '70s. I think Cap himself may have used the Nomad handle in comics that came out in the '70s, but it's hard to separate myself from being a reader in 2010...so whenever I hear the name, I picture Jack Monroe with his long hair and trenchcoat, and it all just seems very '90s to me. Just my opinion, but yeah, whether the names I tossed into the ring work for you or not, I do think that at the very least, they "feel" like they have a certain '70s vibe. I understand where you're coming from. I guess I look at the Nomad issue a bit differently, though, because I was around when Steve first donned the Nomad identity, and that was pure '70's. I also was reading Captain America when Jack Monroe donned the identity, and it worked for him then. I could never get into the long-haired/trenchcoated version of Jack Monroe/Nomad because I couldn't see a character who grew up in the 50's having the trendy MTV look that they gave Jack. It didn't work for him. Someone else, maybe, but not Jack Monroe. Still, I also understand how it could be confusing to have Bucky assume an identity that readers have seen associated with someone else (Jack Monroe) for so long, although he didn't have that identity in the 1970's. After Cap abandoned it, no one else took it until the 1980's, with Jack assuming it upon his return. I certainly agree with you that Bucky isn't likely to go back to the Winter Solider identity. However, I think the Winter Soldier identity is important for the Soviets, who would likely create a new Winter Soldier. Something to think about. Thanks. I think it's important to think about how things got to where they are. Personally, I wish they would have just fixed the 1945-1949 problem by setting the Baron Zemo story in 1949, instead of 1945. I think Englehart did a good job of explaining the brief period (1953-1955) when Captain America came back, leaving only the earlier post-WWII era to deal with. I would have been content to have Spirit of '76 and Patriot just be themselves. I'm not sure how I'll handle that at the moment, but the Patriot can certainly still be in action in 1978 (particularly with the infinity serum floating around). The original What If? series was, at least in the early issues, quite good. I know I was looking forward to the Gwen Stacey issue, but there were some very memorable issues early on. I thought that #3 was a classic Avengers story, for instance. The series had immense potential. The second run, though, was abysmal. One of the things I most enjoy about this series is that I don't have to accept modern continuity that I have a problem with. I don't know too much about what's been done with the modern V-Batallion, although I know some of it. The same is true of various other characters, and some really lame things that have been done with them. This series will exist almost exclusively on continuity as it existed in 1978. So, that means that a lot of characters may be quite a bit different than modern readers may be used to seeing them. So, it could prove interesting to see readers' reaction to that fact, particularly with some of the storylines coming up soon in the title. If you accept that both men took on the mantle of Captain America, one question you have to ask is what extra did the US government/forces that be do to either of them than what they did on their own? We already know that both were good fighters. Patriot had been in action since 1940, and had quite a bit of fighting experience by 1945. Spirit of '76 was a retcon character, although Thomas based him on an actual Golden Age character (as he often did with his swipes), but was active at least by 1942, when he appeared in Invaders. I will say that, although Jeff Mace would be in his late 50's in 1978, he would certainly be capable of donning the costume, particularly if he was given either a super soldier serum derivative or the infinity formula that Nick Fury, Natasta, and some others have been said to have gotten. At any rate, I'm certainly willing to have some of the old Golden Age characters pop up. Just a matter of when and how. Thanks again for adding your input into the discussion. Sorry I didn't notice it until now, though. I haven't checked the message board in a couple of weeks, I suppose. Jeff
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