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Post by Brent Lambert on Jun 5, 2012 21:40:37 GMT -5
Uncanny X-Men #1-5 by Bryan Locke
So I’m fulfilling a promise made long ago to review this whole arc in its entirety. Cory was oh so kind to remind me of said promise. And I’m not one to walk away from my promises.
#1- The Angel/Firestar sleeping together thing was equal parts gross and shock value. There wasn’t any build up to it. It just felt like I was reading some alternate reality scene without any real pillars to hold it up as anything other than a scene meant to shock. Gambit was actually kind of charming when talking with Rogue and that’s something he hasn’t been when it comes to her for a very long time. So kudos on that. Nareel and her son being with Peter was definitely a good carry over and I think the long awaited confrontation with Kitty was well handled. The whole idea of X-Fest seems odd, out of place, and out of its time. It seemed like Bryan was trying to capture some essence of Woodstock and it just felt awkward and strange. I don’t think it inspired in me the feeling that Bryan was shooting for. Charles’ discussion with Moira felt very Xavier in some spots and then felt like I was listening to a high hippy preacher in others. Layla was a highlight of this issue. Bryan made her creepy in the way she was when she originally appeared in the comics.
#2- Justice with Sugar Kane gets a big HELL NO from me. It doesn’t make any sense man. It just did not work for me at all. The whole Firestar sleeping with Angel thing I could kind of accept, but Justice and Sugar Kane is a pairing you can’t just throw at the reader and expect them to accept it. You need something more. There needs to be even the smallest squeak of explanation in there which there wasn’t for me. Again, Peter and Shadowcat shine in their scene this issue. You can feel all the pain and love of their relationship in those words. This is how I would have liked the Justice/Sugar Kane thing to have worked. Don’t beat me over the head with it, but make me understand why these characters are at their particular place in life. On another note, I absolutely hate the hippie vibe that is being thrust on the mutant community. I’ve always seen mutants and the X-Men on the cutting edge of social issues, not sliding back into some 60s/70s nostalgia mode. All I’m waiting for is Charles to put on a tie dye robe and have mutants chanting around him. The whole Vance doubting himself thing is getting old and is really not what the character has done for the majority of his history. I don’t even think I can call it regression, but it’s just a big yawn. I have to admit, this issue ends with a pretty awesome line and is a great piece of foreshadowing.
#3- I’m so so on the whole Emma have mutant hepatitis thing. It’s not a terrible idea, but it’s not exactly one that makes me shout from the rooftops. I can live with it, but I can live just as well without it. Logically, it does make sense that certain common diseases would mutate to be mutant specific. Though for the first person to have this happen to in continuity to be Emma is a bit…I don’t know why I almost feel insulted for Emma. Seems almost degrading honestly. Can’t really explain why that just struck me as wrong. But I do love the flashback scene between Charles and Emma. I think it was wonderfully done and Charles’ words to Emma at the end were very powerful. It strikes at the core of exactly who Xavier is IMO. The story then moves along at a pretty good pace with Gambit and The Morlocks and then Kitty encountering Dazzler. You can feel that Bryan was starting to hit a stride with those two scenes. The subsequent scenes are slowed down by all the music references. I know Dazzler’s lyrics have been laced throughout these issues but honestly after this issue I just can’t help but feel like I won’t be missing much if I skip over them. They’re distracting and I get that they’re supposed to be artsy and add some level of depth, but it’s like listening to one of those conversations where someone is discussing literature and trying to show the other person how superior their knowledge. All you can do is roll your eyes and tune them out. That’s what the Dazzler lyrics do for me. The issue ends with another good cliffhanger and definitely someone I was not expecting to jump into the Mutant Town madness.
#4- The very first scene is really tense and makes the stakes a bit more real. Up until this point, this whole Mutant Town trouble has really just felt like a pale imitation of the D.C. riots in my head. This scene kind of helps in giving this incident a bit more of its own identity for me. While I love time travel, the X-Cutioner bit to Justice felt a bit too much like Bishop and his traitor storyline. I think it was the whole harping on the traitor within the X-Men’s midst. Not to say this scene was necessarily bad because I think it did serve a purpose. It added a new level of seriousness to the Mutant Town events. Though it did seems a bit self-indulgent to refer to this thing as the “Fire”. I don’t know, that part seemed a bit much to me. All the philosophizing between Layla and Callisto was just too much on the nose for me. It was like I was reading Bryan’s ideas of the X-Men coming through Layla’s mouth and they were being crammed down my throat. I get that Bryan has his own philosophy about the X-Men but it shouldn’t be so blaringly apparent. Prodigy and Nightcrawler meeting felt a bit inspirational until the damn lyrics got in the way again and soiled the end of the scene for me. The promise of a Gambit and X-Cutioner rematch is a pretty juicy one considering some of the history those two have. It was definitely one of those things for me that makes me want to press on to the next issue. I’m surprised, but happy, with how big of a role Nareel has had in things. I’m not sure if she’ll survive this fire, but she’s had more characterization in this arc than she has ever had in her entire comic existence so that’s saying something. I have always championed for the obscure getting highlighted.
#5- I haven’t commented on the Unity concept yet but I think I’m a bit ambivalent about it. Not the first mutant drug to hit the scene, but I just don’t see the need for another one. Especially when I don’t really feel like it’s anything all that different from the other established mutant drugs. But that’s just me. When Glob Herman starting talking to Quentin, I cringed at one point at the corniness of some of his dialogue. Felt like I was ready bad poetry attempting to be profound. Sometimes less is more and I think that’s a lesson that could be applied to ALL of these issues so far. I have to admit that the Emma/Justice scene was quite clever and a very cool use of her telepathy. It was well done and a quick, but believable (at least in comic world) way around a potentially sticky problem. And then we move into an overly gushy Dazzler scene that has more of this overdone dialogue. It’s dense and overly emotional without actually being impactful. It was very interesting seeing how Layla, Quentin, and David all connected. I think there is something very fun that will come out of that. The Gambit/X-Cutioner conflict was indeed a fun one to read and the last bit of dialogue had me laughing out loud literally. I think that single, simple bit of dialogue evoked more real emotion out of me than anything else in this story so far. Less is more. The next scene had some real, high-paced action and hallelujah no Dazzler lyrics in the mix to interrupt it. This how I would have liked for the whole arc to be. Not this overly philosophical, almost weepy thing. The finale with Erik The Red was actually a pretty damn good piece of writing if you got past some of the dialogue attempting to be poetic and clever, but falling flat. Still, the action was damn good and Erik the Red was made a scary villain in his debut. I have a guess on who he might really be, but I’ll keep that to myself. Still the finale was a good one.
OVERALL THOUGHTS- So I think my biggest problem with Uncanny X-Men right now is this idea of self-importance that seems to permeate it. It pontificates to you at almost every chance and forces ideas down your throat instead of finessing them into your consciousness. It’s attempting far too hard to be a smart piece of work and instead starts to sound like blah, blah, blah, blah…ad infinitum. There are good, solid ideas in the arc and plenty of moments of good writing. But those things get overshadowed by “clever” literary devices and dialogue trying too hard to be thought provoking. This whole first arc feels like the guy at a party who’s trying to tell a story about himself and everyone knows he’s blowing up the details to seem suave and intriguing. Pair down those seemingly self-important elements and you’ll have the intriguing, thought-provoking story you’re looking for in the long run I think.
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Post by bryanlocke on Jun 7, 2012 23:04:56 GMT -5
Wow, thanks, Brent!
I can see we have differing philosophies, not just on the X-Men, but probably writing and language in general. You see...most of the scenes you liked were the scenes I felt were the least interesting! And the things you said "fell flat" probably weren't going to impress you no matter what I tried to do, your aversion to these more intricate things in literature is fairly obvious, not just by this review, but by your own writings.
The dialogue and the lyrics and the prose mix and work together in order to be something different, and throw a reader for a loop. Each is supposed to sometimes sound like the others. It's supposed to stay seeped in suffocating drama and leave exasperated aftermath, much like a fire does in real life. I'm sorry if you felt overwhelmed. It is a concern of mine to be a bit more subtle, but when it comes to the fire there was no time or place for anyone to be subtle.
Brent, I can understand if people don't necessarily want the X-Men to be about the ideas I put forth. But these ideas are not put forth to impress anyone. This is what the X-Men are about, plain and simple, in my eyes. That may be hard to swallow at times when we're expecting/resigned to just mindless action and one-dimensional storytelling (which is mostly what I've experienced not just with fanfic, but sci-fi prose in general).
Morrison had his own blantant philosophy about the X-Men, as did Claremont and Casey, and these philosophies are obvious in arcs like Riot at Xavier's, God Loves Man Kills and Poptopia. I don't feel bad that you're understanding what I'm doing.
I'm not sure if you're a hardcore music fan like me, Brent, but I got a BIG laugh when you said Woodstock was the only concert that came to mind when reading about Mutant Town. I'm sorry, but what I described is pretty much just about every concert I go see here in Denver, or Boulder, out at Red Rocks, and even those other crazy fests like Global or BurningMan or Bonnaroo (all of which I've attended more than once).
But it might just be the part of the country you live in, I know there are some places that don't experience this type of culture, but trust me, it's alive and well in the inner cities (as you may have noticed with the recent 99% movement).
Shock was the only thing you got out of that scene? Odd, because there was some important characterization happening with Warren, and Angelica was left in a place away from Vance, which was another point.
YES~! I swear you are the only person who has seen what I wanted to do with this scene. Everyone just jumped on my case for Gambit's accent!
Brent, I've only been describing an inner-city feel to Mutant Town and the community there. I look outside my window at downtown Denver and describe what I see with a bit of Marvel flair thrown in. I can understand how you're misreading the concept if you just haven't experienced this type of culture before. But it's amusing to me that you're "flashing back" to decades you weren't even born in!
"Cutting edge of social issues"? What does that even mean? We've been fighting the same social issues since society was born, man! The problems don't come out with sleek new versions like a new cell phone! LOL
But, if we want to be philosophical, the X-Men have never been anything more than a super-powered civil rights activists. So, yeah, maybe Xavier is Woody Guthrie. I don't feel bad about that comparison.
I'm not sure where you're coming from. Both Vance and Sugar are well-known, youthful celebrities in the Marvel-verse. Youthful celebs regularly hang out and hook up, Brent, I know you've read the headlines in the checkout at Wal-Mart. That's reason enough for these two to get cozy. It's not like we're talking Scott-Jean/Peter-MJ style relationships here, Brent. We're talking real relationships. You know, the kind that last between one night and one month. The kinds that maybe we shouldn't start in the first place, but we'll never forget, maybe never regret.
No, angst is EXACTLY what Vance has done through the majority of his history. It's not just doubting himself, but heartbreak and a career-loss are enough to send any guy reeling into a downward spiral (which is what Emma commented on in that scene which I'm happy you enjoyed). The angst isn't going away anytime soon. I'm working Vance away from the boring Junior Avenger role he's had since Thor introduced the New Warriors, and into something that more suits his destiny.
I love that writers here had the balls to put Peter in a committed relationship with Nareel. That is NOT something I am going to disregard or disrespect. Nareel is great character and I'm very excited with where she's going and where her relationship with Peter is going.
Stick with this one, Brent. I think you'll like my explanation for exactly what happened to Emma. If you remember your M2K history, you might not be surprised at the explanation actually.
You know, I was VERY disappointed when I read some other concepts of designer drugs in the M2K-verse. All of them were hollow or one-dimensional, or even fleeting, like it's only there to make a character more evil by their connection to drug-dealing, or to make a sympathetic character instantly no longer sympathetic.
As you've witnessed here, Brent, these characters are not judged by their drug-use. Again, this is a detail I add from my own experiences in urban America. It's an important and essential part of the culture. That's what I'm getting across here. One of those other half-hearted attempts at this detail just wouldn't have cut it for me.
But as you've read, there is a nasty secret to the Unity drug, and it makes the monster Golgotha just that much more menacing!
On a related side note, I guess I'm using sex in the same way I'm using drugs: illustrating that it's a normal thing that normal, tortured, everyday people do, but just like everything else they do, it's going to have some reprecussions on their emotions and their stability.
Heh. He was high on drugs, Brent. But this does also tie into what I said earlier about prose, lyrics and dialogue each trying mutate into one another.
Hey! Didn't you promise a full run on Storm and Fallen Angels? Haha, just ribbing ya, Brent.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for reading. That's really all I ask of anyone. The review however, was above and beyond. Thank you ever so much.
I was actually thinking about sending in a quick two-or-three issue pitch to finish up your Storm series, so I read your entire run over the weekend! Maybe I'll do one of these things for you!
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Post by Daniel Ingram on Jun 8, 2012 19:51:04 GMT -5
I've enjoyed your X-Men alot Locke, but there's some stuff here I just gotta disagree with. Otherwise my New Warriors fanclub membership would be revoked Shock was the only thing you got out of that scene? Odd, because there was some important characterization happening with Warren, and Angelica was left in a place away from Vance, which was another point. Honestly, shock was what I got out of it too. In Firestar's previous relationship, things were fairly conservative in both senses of the word. She and Vance were serious about saving themselves for marriage, and a major character subplot for Firestar was the fact that her powers threatened to render her sterile. ...then, one night stand with Angel. I'll be honest, it booted me from the story. I'm not sure where you're coming from. Both Vance and Sugar are well-known, youthful celebrities in the Marvel-verse. Youthful celebs regularly hang out and hook up, Brent, I know you've read the headlines in the checkout at Wal-Mart. That's reason enough for these two to get cozy. It's not like we're talking Scott-Jean/Peter-MJ style relationships here, Brent. We're talking real relationships. You know, the kind that last between one night and one month. The kinds that maybe we shouldn't start in the first place, but we'll never forget, maybe never regret.. For me personally, the problem is two fold. Besides the fact that one night stands isn't Vance's style, we're told more about Vance's celebrity status than we actually see it. We're told he had a failed reality show, but that's all off-panel. And honestly, Vance as a celeb is hard to reconcile with his character. At his core, Vance is the guy who does right because it is right, regardless of the consequences. The man who can make the hard choices in split seconds decisions. What would a reality show about an uptight moral stiff be about, anyways? How to starch his whites? No, angst is EXACTLY what Vance has done through the majority of his history. It's not just doubting himself, but heartbreak and a career-loss are enough to send any guy reeling into a downward spiral (which is what Emma commented on in that scene which I'm happy you enjoyed). The angst isn't going away anytime soon. I'm working Vance away from the boring Junior Avenger role he's had since Thor introduced the New Warriors, and into something that more suits his destiny. ...he's always been more than that, even at some of his lowest periods. First first Avengers arc, he broke out of Morgan Le Fay's spell because of moral character, not team membership. This is not to say Vance doesn't have angst, but it's not something that controls him. When it comes to angst, he has far more in common with Cap than he does with Spidey. Mind, I love your X-Men Locke, but your Warriors need a little work
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Post by bryanlocke on Jun 9, 2012 14:13:04 GMT -5
Ingram, firstly, thank you for the feedback. I know you've probably heard me mention it on the boards but I could never get into the New Warriors. They were my favorite Marvel punchline. Now, as a Marvel Zombie, that doesn't mean I didn't try on various occassions to follow the series (with one notable attempt happening during the "Marvel-lution"). But every time I was left disappointed.
Now, as a writer however, I have a responsibility to be caught up with the backstories of these characters. I'd like to think I have a grasp of where Vance and Angelica were when the M2K cut-off began. I take that responsibility very seriously. I've seen the way other fanfic writers gloss over character transitions, and I *hate* it.
Well, I disagree with the Cap analogy for right now. He may turn into that type of character but he's not right now. I LOVED Busiek's version of the character, but if you remember, though Vance was very brave and full of morality...he's not full of authority. He is NOT an authoritative character. Captain America is very much authoritative.
But come on, it's not like I turned Vance into a pussy! He still bravely went into the fire. He still challenged the authority and inaction of the NYPD! His angst hasn't been controlling him. He's just heartbroken! Haven't you fanboys ever had your hearts broken?!?! (it hurts, man and you can't think of anything else)
I'm not trying to make Vance into Peter Parker either. I don't think Peter could handle the celebrity lifestyle that Vance takes in stride with his super-hero career.
Which leads me to...
ALL super-heroes in the Marvel Universe are celebrities. All of them, even the damn Punisher and the misunderstood X-Men. I imagine even Deathlok as a fansite dedicated to him by zombie-fanatics, as much as I imagine the New Warriors probably had dozens of sites dedicated to them too!
This is how they've been handled ever since Stan Lee (as editor) brought these heroes out of the Golden Age. Wasn't it Stern who actually had the Avengers as guest-stars on Saturday Nite Live and David Letterman? Ingram, I'm actually SHOCKED that you don't feel the same way about this as I do.
I understand that Vance is morally on the straight and narrow. I don't think I've done anything to misrespresent that. He does do the right thing all the time, and he has done so throughout my run! He's a team-player though too, so we have to remember he does cede to other personalities.
The reality show about Vance and Angelica would have had the same point as any other mind-numbing reality show: Americans want to watch their celebrities in action, it's just a big, pathetic part of our culture. And, as I said, since super-heroes are celebrities in the Marvel Universe, this tv show is probably viewed in much the same way the world watched Brad Horton's X-Corp! (And hey, I didn't say the show was good, hell, it could've been terrible like Sarah Palin's Alaska!)
And really, the Vance/Angelica break-up is supposed to mirror the television break-up of other reality stars like Nick/Jessica and Jon&Kate+8. I think that message did get across to the majority of readers....readers who I'll admit, probably don't have as much of an attachment to the characters as you have, Daniel. So I can see why you took it differently.
And actually, the thing with Sugar WAS NOT a one-night stand. In their two scenes together before Vance left to fight the fire, I fairly clearly mentioned through dialogue and inner-voice that the two are in a relationship together that we could compare to say...Kim/Ray-Jay (without the sex-tape) or J-Lo/P-Diddy or JT/Britney.
Also, there's a scene in issue 6 which reaffirms the fact that Vance and Sugar are "hooked up". This means YOU HAVEN'T READ ISSUE 6!
Now, let's finish up with the thing that will probably anger you the most, Daniel, but I'm ready for it.
I remember both those sub-plots. I actually was a big fan of the "Is Firestar barren?" storyline quite a bit. It was something comics never really touched on in such a manner before, considering comics are mostly male-oriented.
But let's be adults about this: just cuz Angel might be worried she's barren, doesn't mean she's not going to have sex. Which brings me to my next point...
I remember being young and in love and dreaming of the perfect woman that I would save myself for and I would wonder what kind of awesome honeymoon we would go on. I would wine her and dine her and leave little notes and chocolates where only she would find them. We would hold hands and be each other's one-and-only. We would lay together on our bed, and die in each other's arms.
Then I grew up.
These are NOT the New Warriors anymore, and love NEVER works that way. Quite frankly after all this time being together and growing together, I'm surprised that they're not just bitter and dependent upon each other, like most unhappy, sex-less relationships are. But that's just my fanboy persepective.
From a writer's perspective, Vance and Angelica needed to move apart in the same way Morrison felt Jean and Scott needed to be moved apart. They are dependent characters, like a horse and carriage, you can't have one without the other. And that's lame. Characters should always be able to stand on their own. They should be defined by their actions and decisions, not by a whole different, other character!
Remember, Firestar and Vance actually debuted completely separate from one another with completely different points behind their creations. But, like Dazzler and Longshot, they ended up on a team together without much to do or really any sort of development at all, so writers just decided to put them together, in an effort to inject some life into them. And it's become the defining event for both of them. I don't like that at all!
Thank you, Daniel, for everything you've written here. I truly enjoy conversing with other fanboys like this, since in reality, I don't know anyone else who can geek out like I can!
I totally respect your concern for Vance and Angelica and the personal attitude you have with them. I feel the same way about characters like Hank and Jan (they belong together, dammit!), or even Northstar (I can't believe he's getting married! Northstar is such a crank I can't imagine anyone living with him until he's old and mellowed! He couldn't leave his crazy sister on her own anyway! And have you seen the marriage-vs-divorce rates for gay couples? He and Kyle would probably divorce within two months! i kid, I kid, but you get my point, eh?)
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Post by Daniel Ingram on Jun 9, 2012 16:13:53 GMT -5
Ingram, firstly, thank you for the feedback. I know you've probably heard me mention it on the boards but I could never get into the New Warriors. They were my favorite Marvel punchline. Now, as a Marvel Zombie, that doesn't mean I didn't try on various occassions to follow the series (with one notable attempt happening during the "Marvel-lution"). But every time I was left disappointed. Now, as a writer however, I have a responsibility to be caught up with the backstories of these characters. I'd like to think I have a grasp of where Vance and Angelica were when the M2K cut-off began. I take that responsibility very seriously. I've seen the way other fanfic writers gloss over character transitions, and I *hate* it.
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Post by hrlambright on Jun 9, 2012 20:29:32 GMT -5
I've gushed enough about Bryan's writing in various Spider-Man release threads, but the one thing I have to say about his UXM is that this is the first time I've read someone write a team of mutants as people reacting to an attack on their culture.
For me, reading this series was a bit of a shock to the system (and it helps if you've read the X-Men Unlimited supplementary material, too), just because it takes that stance. I've read the X-Men as an army. I've read them as a strike force. I've read them as a minority hiding itself in the shadows. This is the first time I think I've ever read the X-Men as people.
I think that most of the complaints about Bryan's run here are continuity-related issues, but I think that comes down under the biggest argument about continuity. I see continuity as a tool to be respected and used when it helps the story. I don't think what Bryan wrote here defies continuity. It may take minor liberties, but it does so in order to portray these characters as people above superheroes. I'm okay with that, just because it's the most unique, refreshing take I've seen in a long time.
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Dino Pollard
Aspiring Loser
Former Writer of Just About Everything
Posts: 26
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Post by Dino Pollard on Jun 10, 2012 2:10:48 GMT -5
But let's be adults about this: just cuz Angel might be worried she's barren, doesn't mean she's not going to have sex. Which brings me to my next point... I remember being young and in love and dreaming of the perfect woman that I would save myself for and I would wonder what kind of awesome honeymoon we would go on. I would wine her and dine her and leave little notes and chocolates where only she would find them. We would hold hands and be each other's one-and-only. We would lay together on our bed, and die in each other's arms. Then I grew up. These are NOT the New Warriors anymore, and love NEVER works that way. Quite frankly after all this time being together and growing together, I'm surprised that they're not just bitter and dependent upon each other, like most unhappy, sex-less relationships are. But that's just my fanboy persepective. This. I haven't read all of Bryan's run yet, but judging from the comments on Vance and Angelica, I feel there's something I have to say: it doesn't matter how moral you are, how chaste you are, or how long you've been in a relationship. People. Make. Mistakes. People do things out of character. People change. It happens all the time. When I was in my teens, I felt the way Vance and Angelica did -- sex was something that should wait. If not for marriage then at least until you're in a committed relationship with someone you love. Then I hit my twenties. And let's just say that if my life were a comic book, fanboys would be carrying torches and pitchforks due to my "out of character" behavior during that period of my life. No one was writing me differently. I wasn't acting out of character. I had simply changed due to circumstances in my life. I'm not completely up to date on Vance and Angelica's history at M2K, but isn't it possible that after being together for 5-10 years in Marvel time and having that relationship end that they'd reevaluate the things they did in the past? When you're fully invested in a relationship and it's suddenly over, it changes you. Maybe temporarily, maybe permanently, but you go through a change. Someone who was once waiting until marriage suddenly doesn't mind having a one-night stand. Someone who was once involved with a person of a certain moral character probably wouldn't see anything wrong with going after a person on the opposite end of the spectrum (and Sugar Kane and Firestar seem to be pretty different people). Most people I've known have done a whole lot of changing in their twenties. People experiment and try things and relationships they never would have done before, and they do things that they may know to be bad for them but do it anyway for the experience. I can't think of one person I know who hasn't at some point done something like this. Bryan seems to be writing these characters not as action figures that should be preserved in their original packaging, but as actual people. I think that deserves praise instead of criticism. But that's just me. Also, I should add that I am a huge fan of the original New Warriors and nothing I've read about Bryan's take on Vance or Angelica bothers me in the slightest.
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Post by bryanlocke on Jun 10, 2012 15:03:33 GMT -5
I've gushed enough about Bryan's writing in various Spider-Man release threads, but the one thing I have to say about his UXM is that this is the first time I've read someone write a team of mutants as people reacting to an attack on their culture. For me, reading this series was a bit of a shock to the system (and it helps if you've read the X-Men Unlimited supplementary material, too), just because it takes that stance. I've read the X-Men as an army. I've read them as a strike force. I've read them as a minority hiding itself in the shadows. This is the first time I think I've ever read the X-Men as people. I think that most of the complaints about Bryan's run here are continuity-related issues, but I think that comes down under the biggest argument about continuity. I see continuity as a tool to be respected and used when it helps the story. I don't think what Bryan wrote here defies continuity. It may take minor liberties, but it does so in order to portray these characters as people above superheroes. I'm okay with that, just because it's the most unique, refreshing take I've seen in a long time. Gosh. I trying not to tear up. This really soothes what Brent said, lemme tell ya LOL Thank you, Hunter. In all honesty, this could be the nicest thing anyone's ever written about anything I've ever written. Spoken like a true fan with these responses, Daniel! "So you've read the New Warriors, right?" Oooh that made me laugh out loud. Riposte! Parry! Touche! I love this. I admit that you know these characters better than I. Your points are more than valid. But perhaps...just perhaps...you are giving a bit too much credit to the writers of your favorite series? I'm a big fan of Alpha Flight and the 90s X-Men, so I'm no stranger to giving shaky comic books praise. No, no, I take that back. It's your fave, and you've made a very good point. It has affected my view of these characters. But, let me say this: I've read the original Firestar miniseries and the MCP issue that introduced Vance Astrovik. I like the potential the characters had in these debuts, and I think they've been moved away from that, partially because they've been together with nothing much to do for like 20 years! But that last part is entirely IMHO. One last thing, which I say as friend, you mention the word 'conservative' like it should be the definition of their personalities. Do you feel rubbed the wrong way because you feel I may have defined their personalities as 'liberal'? Or did you mean you only feel the sexual side of their personalities is conservative? (Because that, you may be right upon, but nothing else about putting on a silly, colorful costume to go out in public and fight your own definition of crime strikes me as conservative, but THAT is an entirely different conversation that we don't want to start ) But I don't think he ceded authority to Emma. He may have done so with mysterious Layla Miller but he was in a kind of helpless situation with Emma, and Emma is very good at getting what she wants. And yes, Vance knows how much of a bitch Emma is, considering Firestar's history with her, but this was a disaster, and Vance was drugged and then stalked by the X-Cutioner. Also, there was the scene with Xavier, in which I tried to cut to the true nature of Vance's character. With the next issue, Dan, we'll see Vance in a stronger light. First scene, actually. Vance meets Warren. Oh, they have so much to talk about. I don't remember Busiek addressing that Vance was acting out of character. I remember Angelica mentioning it within the storyline, but I don't remember it being a thing that he really grew out of during his time as an Avenger, either. When he left the team, he wasn't exactly Gerber's Captain Astro. The Avengers Initiative is set after the M2K cut-off, so I didn't take that into account....and Christos Gage gets under my skin, but that has nothing to do with how I see Vance. Yes, he was a fine member of the New Warriors, I haven't done anything to discount that. Just because he didn't immediately step up to the plate to lead Layla's X-Men in the face of disaster after being drugged and hounded, doesn't mean he's not a strong personality. And remember, he's heartbroken. He's going through a rough patch and has found himself in a new direction. Do you think after all his time with Angelica, that Vance is so strong and authoritative that he could just fly off without her and immediately become the next Cyclops? (If you say yes, I will still respect you, but I'd give you the 'agree to disagree' line too) I love Vance and what I'm doing with him, so maybe that's why I'm responding so in-depth to you, Daniel. His scenes, I feel, are some of my strongest, particularly the ones with Emma. I know why you think I'm doing him an injustice, based on what you've read. I can only hope you stick with me, cuz Vance does do some things that might strike you as more in line starting next ish. And one, final, thing: I think a reality show about Captain America would be at the top of the ratings in the Marvel Universe! Because people would watch it. Why? It's not my place to answer that question, I only know it to be so. Now, get back to Excalibur! You can take your time with Force Works, but I must have more Excalibur! Thank you for the insightful, personal post, Dino. I would like to hear what you think of my issues, of course. But you strike at the heart of what I'm trying to do with Vance (and I guess by extension Angelica, though I didn't put a hard dib on her) There's actually a line in Vance's first scene about his scruffy beard, and how he doesn't care to shave it. I know it seems trivial, but I stuck that line in as kind of a humorous acknowledgement that Vance is going through a sea change.
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Post by Daniel Ingram on Jun 10, 2012 15:48:11 GMT -5
Spoken like a true fan with these responses, Daniel! "So you've read the New Warriors, right?" Oooh that made me laugh out loud. Riposte! Parry! Touche! I love this.. Well, I just remember having to correct some misimpressions of yours regarding the series I admit that you know these characters better than I. Your points are more than valid. But perhaps...just perhaps...you are giving a bit too much credit to the writers of your favorite series? I'm a big fan of Alpha Flight and the 90s X-Men, so I'm no stranger to giving shaky comic books praise.. I've loved me some crappy series before, but that's not New Warriors. So nope! One last thing, which I say as friend, you mention the word 'conservative' like it should be the definition of their personalities. Do you feel rubbed the wrong way because you feel I may have defined their personalities as 'liberal'? Or did you mean you only feel the sexual side of their personalities is conservative? (Because that, you may be right upon, but nothing else about putting on a silly, colorful costume to go out in public and fight your own definition of crime strikes me as conservative, but THAT is an entirely different conversation that we don't want to start . I meant more conservative in their actions, in how they loved their lives. Unlike say Nova or Thrash, both Firestar and Justice were cautious about how they lived their lives. It's not the fact that both are so casual about sex that's so jarring. After all, Vance started a relationship with Ultra Girl later that included sex, but we saw what led him up to that point. With your series, it's like going from 0 to 60 mph in the blink of an eye. And while one can argue that it's realistic, never forget the old saying "There are some things that only happen in real life and bad fiction" You're well on the side of good fiction, I just want to keep ya there I don't remember Busiek addressing that Vance was acting out of character. I remember Angelica mentioning it within the storyline, but I don't remember it being a thing that he really grew out of during his time as an Avenger, either. When he left the team, he wasn't exactly Gerber's Captain Astro. Avengers 13, the first appearance of Lord Templar. Vance and Firestar start working with the Warriors again, and Firestar observes that Vance is in much better form. And it's comfortably within M2K canon Now you know ;D Basically, Vance was star struck in Kurt's Avengers and no offense, I feel like it's that characterization that seems to hold the most influence on your characterization. And it's harder to work, as none of the X-Men constitute his idols. Now, get back to Excalibur! You can take your time with Force Works, but I must have more Excalibur! Sorry, Force Works will always be my first love. Excalibur is like my...fourth or fifth. Titans East just pushed it back some more!
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Post by bryanlocke on Jun 10, 2012 16:58:00 GMT -5
Hey! I didn't say it was crappy! It has too many fans for it to be so completely terrible. That's not my point of view. Even if it was terrible, it's canon, and still needs to be treated with respect.
Well said. Point made.
I remember this...but my point was more that he's still not in a Captain America type of role. Certainly not at the 'Captain Astro' destiny he glimpsed, and certainly still young and impressionable. Or at least, I didn't take from that issue what youre trying to say, but then again it came out when I was like 14 so maybe its fuzzy. But Vance is certainly more forward and strong in those situations than Spidey...and he was drugged then hungover and a bit out of it during the fire.
But, I think you summed up the problem well here:
Damn. Because that's not how I see Vance. I really haven't meant to write him that way at all. Heartbreak is bit different than immaturity. I'll work on that in the future.
Double damn!
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Post by hrlambright on Jun 10, 2012 17:08:43 GMT -5
Wasn't Captain Astro the superhero obsession in Queer as Folk? d:
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Post by Cory W. on Jun 11, 2012 10:16:25 GMT -5
I do want to point out that a lot of time has passed since Justice and Firestar's last appearance at M2K and their current presence in Uncanny X-Men. On top of the six month gap that Bryan and I established, there's also the simple fact that they've kind of been doing nothing at the site since Avengers. Sure, some may see it as a bit of a cheap literary gimmick in continuity based fanfic, but to say "this is where they were, then they disappeared, and now that they're back this is what happened off-panel to change them" is an entirely fair approach to the characters. After all, what's the alternative? Write an "Untold Tales of Firestar and Justice" mini-series or a collection of X-Men Unlimited stories explaining the changes in the course of their lives?
Err... hey, wait... that actually isn't a bad idea...
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Post by bryanlocke on Jun 13, 2012 0:22:10 GMT -5
Wasn't Captain Astro the superhero obsession in Queer as Folk? d: Bah you're right. I meant "Major Astro". Yeah, I see the problem with "off-panel" changes. It can seem lazy and disrespectful. I didn't want that. I wanted change, I wanted different characters, I wanted drama, I wanted angst, I wanted a traitor, I wanted blah blah blah I wanted everything I loved about the X-Men when I was a kid. But I wasn't going to mention this but...I did want to write an X-Men Unlimited lead-in featuring the New Warriors. and Vance and Angel's tv show. The hook would be...that I would script it as though I was scripting a reality tv show. There would probably be a framing device. I thought it would be fun to script something innane like that.
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Post by Meriades Rai on Jun 25, 2012 7:03:02 GMT -5
They say there's no publicity like bad publicity, and with that in mind I was intrigued enough by this review to check out Brian's UXM #1-5.
Normally I don't read any X fic because I'm not familiar enough with the characters (and, because most X titles have upwards of ten characters flitting around at any given moment, that's a genuine turn-off). I therefore have no comment to make about what is or isn't in character.
What I *will* say is that I actually thought some the prose was wonderful, and beautifully different, and that I was swept along quite happily throughout. I adored the way certain characters were written (most notably Peter, Kitty and Emma Frost; the two early scenes with Kitty and Colossus were simply gorgeous), and I heartily applaud the build up and subsequent explosion of tragedy and colour that was the oncoming storm of the first two issues. It wasn't just the richness of the language, it was all the clever symmetry of certain scenes and lines being woven together; a lot of it probably passed me by, in truth, especially anything related to significant X history, but I recognised pieces here and there that struck a chord in me.
These were very real characters, full of emotion and vulnerability, but ultimately a very distinct vein of heroism. It's easy for an 'outsider' like me to liken the X-Men with self-pity and angst and martyrdom, but I didn't get that at all from this arc (well, aside from Vance maybe, but maybe that's why so many others shone so brightly). The festival landscape, and the feel of everything, didn't actually bring to mind celebration for me. It was more the unspoken fear of being young, being on the edge of adulthood and not knowing what's coming, and just wanting to live for the intensity of the moment. I'm not sure being a mutant came into it at all; being a mutant was about what came next, the senseless tragedy and slaughter, and that's when the X-Men (or a version of them) were reborn.
I loved Kitty's spirit, and Peter's hollow, just-the-right-side-of-despair shows of strength (Colossus is one of the few X characters I truly love, the man of steel with the brittle, melancholy heart). I liked Layla's quirkiness, and the fact that Emma is all the sexier and more seductive for being so sour and loveless, and the oppressive darkness of Nightcrawler's church-bound state. None of this would have worked half so well without the richness of style that drenched everything, and without the intimacy that Bryan was prepared to write with. The flashbacks - the use of them and their content - were also masterfully done, especially the scene with Charles and Emma telepathically jousting at the party (my favourite scene after those with Peter and Kitty).
I just genuinely thought it was rather lovely. That's not to say anyone else is wrong, everyone has their own viewpoint and - as I said - I can't offer comment on the authenticity of certain characters. But give me this kind of heartfelt, dramatic, internal-driven prose over more standard 'he-punched-him/she-said-this' stories any day.
Adored it.
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