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Post by brawl2099 on Jul 21, 2006 9:35:14 GMT -5
I haven't read any FF issues, so I'm completely uninformed here but-
I really like the idea of the techno-advanced Pittsburgh. It's kind of like what DC did with Metropolis a few years ago. Their biggest problem was they didn't really explore the city that much. Doing an entire arc on the mysteries of this city would be a blast.
Also, I agree about Reed. He wouldn't leave a city like that willingly. By force, maybe...
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Post by Alex Hayden on Jul 21, 2006 13:10:11 GMT -5
The whole exploring the city arc sounds like a good idea. Now you just have to find someone to do the story.
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Chris Munn
Virgin-4-Lyfe
Author of the Book of Sins
Posts: 100
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Post by Chris Munn on Jul 22, 2006 23:13:38 GMT -5
And there's your problem. It's easy to say "leave the FF in Pittsburg because it sounds cool" when you're not the one coming on board to write the book. Most likely, if someone new were to come to the site and ask about writing the Fantastic Four, they're going to want to do so with as fresh a start as possible - NOT be saddled with the status quo of the previous writer that really changed a lot of the book's dynamics.
That's not to say that I didn't like Jason's ideas for FF and Pittsburg, because I DID. But I don't think it fair to force an incoming writer with a status quo so changed from the norm. Move the FF back to New York.
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Post by Cory W. on Jul 22, 2006 23:22:50 GMT -5
And there's your problem. It's easy to say "leave the FF in Pittsburg because it sounds cool" when you're not the one coming on board to write the book. Most likely, if someone new were to come to the site and ask about writing the Fantastic Four, they're going to want to do so with as fresh a start as possible - NOT be saddled with the status quo of the previous writer that really changed a lot of the book's dynamics. That's not to say that I didn't like Jason's ideas for FF and Pittsburg, because I DID. But I don't think it fair to force an incoming writer with a status quo so changed from the norm. Move the FF back to New York. Yeah, that was exactly my line of thinking when I figured that the Fantastic Four should leave Pittsburgh and head back to New York. If anyone wants to revisit the idea, they're free to do so and it'll be easy enough to simply have the Fantastic Four return to PA. However, it's not as simple for a new writer to write their way out of a plot that wasn't theirs and that they have no idea what to do with, let alone have no intention of building on. This is where us editors come in.
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Post by Stephen Crosby on Jul 23, 2006 13:00:17 GMT -5
Well, what if the Fantastic Four didn't leave by their choice? To me it makes perfect sense for a government agency to just go in there and take over the situation. Get's the Fantastic Four back to New York City and leaves Pittsburgh the way it is to be followed on or ignored.
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pop.creature
Aspiring Loser
Mike Rasbury is broken
Posts: 27
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Post by pop.creature on Jul 23, 2006 20:22:20 GMT -5
Since it's been brought up, I'm of the mind that you don't change a damn thing. If you can't find a writer to follow plots left over a previous writer...so be it. This fanfic community of ours has a habit of hitting the reset or retcon button and it's kinda ridiculous.
I quite like seeing people HAVE to push onward with left over plots, that's the point of community based fic, working together. If we continually allow work arounds or whatever then we devalue the merit of the community.
And any skilled writer can make it work. For an example, at Omega's WCA books we took and ran with left over plots by David Smith and at the same time were able to forge onward with plots I'd been wanting to see written from the fabled Avengers United project.
I don't really see why Fantastic Four stories of any kind can't be written in a city that is different only in name. I mean, who's to say that a new writter can't mols this new Pittsburgh into whatever they want.
Besides, it's Fantastic Four, the book isn't ABOUT smashing badguys in a certain city. It's about exploration, fantasy, science and family. If an oncoming writer can't write those in any setting, well, they flat out don't deserve the damn book.
And lastly, wasn't it here that Johnny Storm was revealed to be gay? I'd think THAT would be a much bigger hurddle for an oncoming write than a stupid city.
So, yeah, don't change a thing.
Raz
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Post by D. Golightly on Jul 23, 2006 21:06:10 GMT -5
I stand by the point of reverting the team back to their "classic" incarnation. That means taking them back to New York. We can't rely on established writers to come along and pick up the pieces. We're always looking for new and talented writers, emphasis on the new. It doesn't seem fair to bog down a totally new writer with left over plots if it isn't necessary.
Also, as it was already pointed out, it's easy enough for a writer to simply take them back to Pittsburgh.
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pop.creature
Aspiring Loser
Mike Rasbury is broken
Posts: 27
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Post by pop.creature on Jul 23, 2006 21:52:41 GMT -5
I stand by the point of reverting the team back to their "classic" incarnation. That means taking them back to New York. We can't rely on established writers to come along and pick up the pieces. We're always looking for new and talented writers, emphasis on the new. It doesn't seem fair to bog down a totally new writer with left over plots if it isn't necessary. Also, as it was already pointed out, it's easy enough for a writer to simply take them back to Pittsburgh. Point being, it isn't NECESSARY to move them back to New York. The city as far as Fantastic Four are concerned is little more than tertiary--if that--background information. For most of Marvel it's the case that the stories don't need to be in New York, they just are because that's where most the talent hailed and they wrote what they knew. For Fantastic Four, that fact is multiplied. Riddle me this one...what do you gain, exactly, from moving them back? You gain the Baxter Building. Because, you know, the FF couldn't have Baxter Building Jr. built in Pittsburgh in a day. An oncoming writer wouldn't even have to really deal with the fact that's it's a different city if is THAT big a deal, simply cleverly sidestep the issues and let somebody else in another book focus on 'em. Then all you would have to do is change the name from New York to Pittsburgh. Hell, I'm of the mind that any prospective FF writer would jump at the chance to let those characters interact with a Pittsburgh as alien as you all say it is. That's kind of a geeky sci-fi wet dream. And frankly, that isn't what's holding M2K back from getting an FF writer, it's the book itself. It doesn't tend to be a fanfic favorite. Those books that have been filled are generally by the dying breed of FF fans. And I don't personally buy the "we won't bog down new writers if we move them back to New York" bit. I mean, ALL the continuity is still on the site. It's not like there's a retcon, so, a perspective writer SHOULD read fifty some issues anyway...so, they'd have to be familiar enough with the Pittsburgh situation. And you can't just displace the FF crew from a place like Alien-Burgh with nary an occasional explanation after that issue. It's something that would need to be dealt with. And, no, this isn't a personal attack on anybody. More fighting for something. And this is a guy who hasn't actually read M2K's FF--hate the characters--and is quite frankly, scared of the amount of continuity M2K has. I simply think that it's a valid plot that shouldn't be disregarded in what I feel is a misguided attempt to lure in a writer. Raz
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Post by Cory W. on Jul 24, 2006 1:35:21 GMT -5
I hope I'm not sounding too antagonistic, but if you feel so strongly about the matter then why did you have your Defenders run at M2K removed as opposed to letting people pick up where you left off and finish your plots? In this instance, we're not actually retconning anything or hitting the reset button. That's what you did by having your Defenders run removed, actually. If you wanted to use the story elsewhere, if you didn't like where a writer here may have taken the story, if you think your story wasn't as appreciated as you'd have liked it to be, or if you simply think M2K's crap, you still did it.
Here, we're talking about how we'd like to finish an abandoned story-arc. I can't speak for everyone, but I think we're having fun in the process, too. We've sort of taken to wrapping up abandoned plots in the past to keep the site's continuity tight and easy to work with. If nothing else, we've definitely enjoyed just talking about it and kicking around ideas. Heaven forbid, we've enjoyed doing it where most people would only find it to be a chore! Some of us might even end up going through with our ideas.
Really, the challenge in taking on characters we don't usually write and wrapping up a complex storyline that was never quite ours is very appealing! We like mixing things up and taking on new and different tasks as writers. However, even if we're just bull shitting with each other and not actually writing out our ideas (or we're simply contributing to the ideas of others), what we're doing is still productive and worthwhile to the site as a whole.
So hey, I ask, "where's the harm?" Steve Crosby's tackling the loose New Warriors threads, D. Golightly and I are currently wrapping up X-Force, Adnan Khan's taken on Amazing Spider-Man, and now Fantastic Four's being considered. It's fun, we're trying new things and growing a little bit as writers, we're putting out good stories (or at least we hope we are) in the process, and we're maintaining our somewhat complex continuity. There is no bad here. You seem to have gotten the impression that we're hitting the reset button, when what we're really doing is completing abandoned story arcs.
If we were gonna hit the reset button, we'd have simply removed the issues, or wrote a short issue that equated to, "it was all a dream" or, "they were all really alternate reality clones." When it's all over, the Vioxx still turned Pittsburgh into the most advanced city on earth, Reed's still recovering from a stroke, Ben's still married to Alicia, Johnny's still bisexual, Franklin's still going through puberty, etc etc. All of the growth and forward momentum that JJ instilled into the characters is still there, it's just that their story in Pittsburgh is being completed. If the Fantastic Four lived in New York before the Pittsburgh story began, wouldn't it make sense that they go back to New York after the Pittsburgh story is completed? No reset button is being hit here. We're just talking about the story coming full circle. Some would like the FF to stay in Pittsburgh to live there. Hey, that's definitely a valid opinion, but going against it isn't exactly blasphemy by any means.
When it comes to the comments about us wanting to make the title more accessible... Well, yeah, that's also true. It *is* a courtesy to give the next writer a steady ground to raise the title from, and they do deserve it. It's sort of our responsibility as editors and writers of the site to make sure our continuity is tight and easy to work with, especially since we have over six and a half years of continuity! Otherwise, we'll end up becoming like MV1, and we all know how that site's gone the way of the Dodo in recent years. I like to think M2K has more structure then they did, however.
When it comes to the next new writer... If they want to have the FF explore the futuristic city, they can go back to it. If they want to have the FF explore a secret society of Moon Gods living on the Moon who want to build a cult made up of Earthlings... well, they should be able to do that without having to dedicate two or three issues to cleaning up someone else's plots. We may want to wrap up abandoned plots for fun, but most others don't. To many, it's not fun at all. It's just a chore, and that's unfortunate, but it's the truth. So we'll have the fun they're missing out on and we'll challenge ourselves as writers whereas most others won't. Is that so bad? No, like I've been getting at - I don't think there is any bad here.
In the end, if anyone was so hard up to tackle the FF and JJ's plots then they'd have already talked to us. If we wanna take care of the plots and have fun doing it ourselves after no one else has expressed interest, then to hell with this "our fanfic community should allow/require future writers to build on a previous writer's work if they wanna write the title and if we don't then we're cheating ourselves and them and if they don't want to then they don't deserve the title." That's just frickin' silly!
We're not trying to lure people into the title, really, nor is this a misguided attempt to make the Fantastic Four at M2K somewhat more appealing. No stories are being disregarded: they're being completed. If nothing else, this is just us killing some time, challenging ourselves as writers, and maintaining the continuity of an already somewhat complex fanfic site. Hell, putting ourselves up to the challenge from time to time will help us grow as writers. There's a lot of good things coming out of this and I highly doubt it's harmful in any way to us, let alone a contribution to the downfall of the fanfic community.
Concluding this uber big post, I also highly doubt that we're alienating any "principles" of how fanfic as a community should operate. And if we are? If somehow there really are "principles" that should dictate us not having fun with our spare time and maintaining the continuity that we've worked so hard to establish over so many years in the name of said spare time and fun? If that really is looked down upon by other fanfic writers out there who don't write for M2K? Well, then fanfic's definitely fucked in its hunky white ass and some changes need to be made.
Find something better to fight for, Raz. Either that or get a puppy. Heh, that worked wonders for my pretentious nephew.
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Jason Eberly
Elitist Know-It-All Prick
Eh, I'll post later...
Posts: 149
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Post by Jason Eberly on Jul 24, 2006 2:03:28 GMT -5
Just because nobody neither asked, nor probably cares, I'll add in my 4.73 cents...
1. I am against taking down stories off of the sites (unless there is an extremely good reason to). I think some writers like the challenge of picking up from 'what has come before'. With that in mind...
2. I also don't see any harm in arcs or storylines that have been abandoned being completed, in whatever way the person doing the completing desires. It does seem that most fanfic writers enjoy having a tabula rasa when they start on a title. In some cases, I like to start off fresh (like Black Widow), and with others I like to jump right into a big ol' mess of plots (like in Daredevil).
3. Couldn't a writer, if they came aboard after Cory 'completed' JJ's story and wanted to stick with the Pittsburgh storyline, merely ask Cory to take down his 'completion' story and pick up right after JJ's?
4. Here's another solution...
"Boy, Benjy...that Pittsburgh sure has been crazy, huh? Good to be back here in the ol' Baxter Building for awhile."
"You said it, hothead. Of course, with how wild things can get in this town, who knows how soon we'll all be able to get back there."
(insert above as a #1/2 or something after JJ's last issue. Puts the team back in New York, but still leaves it open for them to go back whenever.)
5. Why was that final arc on Defenders removed? I was slowly reading them (they are quite long, after all), then they just disappeared. Bah.
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Post by Kristi Manchester on Jul 24, 2006 2:35:25 GMT -5
Wow, this is sure getting alot of attention...geez, anyway why not just wrap up the current storyline and leave them in Pittsburgh? The story is wrapped up and the FF stay out of NY. (Which I still believe has to many heroes as it is.) This gives a new writer a point to start a new story from without having to finish of Jason's unfinished arcs. To me, this sounds like the best option for the title...but thats me. Anyway, I have to get back to XMU and this ridiculously painful headache I have...
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Post by Cory W. on Jul 24, 2006 2:41:04 GMT -5
I totally agree, Jason. There's really no reason to overthink this and I don't see why it's such a bad thing for us to wrap up loose plots like we are.
And it's good to hear that you're back working on XMU, Kristi! You still have to kick off your official Wolverine run, y'know. I think all of the suggestions we're getting are good ones and whatever's decided should work, regardless. It looks like Gary Jones will be tackling JJ's remaining plots, which will be his first piece of work for M2K, so I'm anticipating this either way!
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Post by Gary Jones on Jul 24, 2006 8:42:39 GMT -5
I'll chime in as well by saying I think its great that the FF are going back to New York.
Part of the fun of the Fantastic four is that all the heroes, even the Avenegrs, consider the Fantastic Four the granddaddy of super-heroics. They are the people the world turns to when the planet needs saving from Galactus or Tony Stark needs advice about a brain injury (wow, how this topic has expanded from my original question huh).
Having them back in New York also lets Johnny hangout with Spidey and Ben to have his poker nights. It's easier for Reed to communte to Pittsburgh in the fantasiticar to examine the technology than it is there, than to come up with an excuse for Spidey to come to Pittsburgh.
That's partially why I enjoy the Marvel U over the DCU, the fact that characters can just walk into others books and have a quick team-up with out having to have a crossover.
Random thoughts perhaps but that's what I think.
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Post by Alex Hayden on Jul 24, 2006 13:19:47 GMT -5
Although I have to agree that there are way to many hero's running around New York, that I shocked that they aren't falling over each other. I will admit that not having Ben at the poker tables for the Friday night poker game is a bit sad.
I also was wondering if this Pittsburgh is so techno advanced with alien tech why isn't the government in there taking that place apart in order to study it all. I mean this is the government we're talking about so I figure they would want to seal the city off from everyone else and do their thing. Now if they are in there already then forgive the post, I just started reading the FF series today since I have so much free time.
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pop.creature
Aspiring Loser
Mike Rasbury is broken
Posts: 27
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Post by pop.creature on Jul 24, 2006 13:45:25 GMT -5
On the DEFENDERS front, you've shown a few times recently that you have NO idea about much in regards to that book or why it ended the way it did, so I'd advise you not pretend that you do. How's that for antagonistic?
But, for the record, DEFENDERS was left on the site for quite a while after I left and people had even discussed it with me about trying to wrap it up here. It wasn't until I started getting complaints about "It's too hard, I can't figure out a way to do it...please come back and wrap it up." that I decided for certain it needed to come down.
Back to FF...if you are in fact wrapping up the story in Pittsburgh, then DO it, is all I'm saying. Don't throw one issue into the fray cleverly plotting the characters out of the city and disregard the rest of the Pittsburgh plot.
The point for this all was that of all Pittsburgh or New York seems like the easiest to overlook plot fix you could make. I mean, if you're gonna keep all the other changes, why not this one? I suppose I just don't see the logic.
Personally, I just think that what makes M2K's FF unique is that it DID change the status quo...LEAVE it that way. M2K has an FF book that is completely different than any other. Why change that, even in the slightest? OWN the book.
But, whatever, you guys are gonna rationalize it however you guys are going too. Which, is cool too. You certainly have the right and if you guys are having fun with it, by all means. Just thought I'd take a case for the opposite just so that it was there, and a little bit more than "wow, Vioxx Pittsburgh was cool, I liked it!" (Sorry about the edit, folks. Accident.)
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